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Preston Pysh and Mark Moss: Swan Signal live E42

Posted 12/10/20 by Brady Swenson

Preston Pysh, Founder of the Investors’ Podcast Network, and Mark Moss, host of Market Disrup­tors, discuss Micros­trat­e­gy’s recent move to raise debt to buy Bitcoin and the looming Bitcoin shortage on exchanges.

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Summary

00:00 Introduction

03:30 Micros­trategy Launches Specu­la­tive Attack?

11:30 Logis­tics of the MSTR Strategy

15:10 Convert­ible Debt Note 101

29:00 Bitcoin As An Official Store of Value

36:15 Reper­cus­sions On Regulating Bitcoin 

59:15 Bitcoin Shortage On Exchanges

1:11:30 Bitcoin vs. Gold & Fiat’s Erosion of Trust 

1:30:59  SSL Sign-Off

Transcript

Brady Swenson:

All right. We are live here for Swan Signal Live. I love these prime time additions, they’re just a lot of fun. Thank you all for joining us today. So, we got a great show here with Preston and Mark. We’re going to dive into the latest news and just see where it goes from there. Before we do, I’m going to update you on Swan. Swan Bitcoin is the producer of this podcast. It’s the safiest… It’s the safest and easiest. I kind of like that actually, the safiest way to accumu­late Bitcoin with automatic recur­ring buys. We have, now, launching an ability to buy right away.

Now, automatic stacking is the safest way, as I mentioned, to stack sats. Just set up something, a regular income, and stack on a daily, weekly basis. However, sometimes you just want to buy now, we get that, we’ve heard you. So, we’re launching buy now. The first cohort of beta testers will be rolling out this week. So, we’ll bring in slowly 50, 60, 100 people at a time, test that buy now button. You can get into that group, if you wants, swanbitcoin.com/buynow.

We have this emerging narra­tive, Bitcoin as a corpo­rate reserve asset. We’re going to talk about that again tonight with the MicroS­trategy news. Swan has recently launched Swan Treasury to meet this demand and serve this extending narra­tive. So, you can learn more about that at swanbitcoin.com/treasury. However big or small your company is we’d love to help you convert some of that melting cash into hard Bitcoin.

And finally, Bitcoin Magazine has compiled a list of the 21 compa­nies and projects they think have done the most for Bitcoin in 2020. That list included Swan, we’re honored to be on that list with a lot of other trail­blazing compa­nies in this industry. Thanks to Bitcoin Magazine and BTC Media for the shout up.

Okay, let’s dive into this one, we’re with Preston Pysh, you all know him. He is the co-founder of the Investors Podcast Network. He’s recently started a Bitcoin focused podcast, which is awesome, airing on Wednes­days, dropping on Wednes­days. And Mark Moss, he is a finance and investing YouTuber. You can find his work at youtube.com/markmoss. It’s high quality, I definitely recom­mend it. Head over there and subscribe, turn on those notifi­ca­tions, Mark’s dropping high quality stuff on finance and investing, and there’s a lot of Bitcoin content in there as well, so check that out.

Okay. Let’s dive into this one. MicroS­trategy, Giga Chad, dropping another bomb. He just can’t get enough guys, just can’t get enough of this Bitcoin. Launching what you might call a specu­la­tive attack. Pierre Rochard wrote this oppres­sion article, thinking about how this might play out. He wrote it in 2014, actually the 4th of July, 2014. You can find it at nakamotoinstitute.org, and he describes a specu­la­tive attack, the idea that you take out debt in US dollars to buy Bitcoin. And this is a way to kind of initiate a run against the dollar and really just crush it with just the weight of being better money, Thiers’ law , “Good money, better money drives out the bad money.”

Preston, this is a big move, man, and it’s different in nature, funda­men­tally, than what they have already done, putting equity and cash on the balance sheet, Bitcoin on the balance sheet. This is something completely different here, I think. Tell me what you think about it.

Preston Pysh:

I think it makes total sense. I’m inter­ested to see how Wall Street reacts to the issuance of the note, because it hasn’t gone out yet so we’re going to see how well it’s received. I’m kind of curious what percent interest rate they’re able to issue it at. In the little bit that I read, it seems like MicroS­trategy has the ability to either convert it in the common stock or they can just pay it off. So, it’s going to be inter­esting to see how they do this. I don’t see this as being anything that a normal person who under­stands how business is done, should be acting. And I bet you, if you look at a lot of private compa­nies that have a majority of voting rights, that have Bitcoiners at the helm of the company, you’re going to see something very similar.

This is really unique because you’re dealing with a publicly traded company. Now, this partic­ular publicly traded company has a person who under­stands Bitcoin, who controls the voting rights, and he’s able to do the stuff that I think other people, at a much smaller scale, are naturally doing. For a person who runs a business who has a debt-to-equity. I think MicroS­trat­e­gy’s debt-to-equity, at the end of last year, was like 0.2. I want to say this past quarter, it was probably a 0.25 debt-to-equity. That’s a really low debt-to-equity ratio for a business. And so, when you try to optimize your returns on your income state­ment, you want to have some type of debt there because of the way that your taxes are done, and how you pay off your debt each month as far as your interest payments, and how that reduces your debt burden. It’s really smart to probably have around a 0.5 debt-to-equity ratio, because you’re just optimizing your earnings.

So, whenever I look at a company like MicroS­trategy, that’s extremely conser­v­a­tive in how they’ve managed debt histor­i­cally, and you look at the oppor­tu­nity that he sees in Bitcoin, and he’s just going to go to market, he’s going to issue some notes, convert­ible notes. I’d be really surprised if he would convert these into stock. I mean, it’s going to depend where he’s at three years from now, because that’s whenever he can start getting into the note in more detail of whether he wants to start letting it run… He’ll probably let it run, clear out to the five-year mark, I suspect, based on the way that we all suspect the price is going to run on Bitcoin. So, he probably won’t start converting and choosing how he’s going to pay these people back.

But it’s going to be really inter­esting. If the market penal­izes his company, or if the market doesn’t keep the stock price moving at the same pace as Bitcoin. Well then, maybe he’ll pay them back in stock. But if it keeps running as fast as Bitcoin, maybe he’ll pay them back in cash. It really depends on what the situa­tion is as he gets closer to the maturity of the note. But yeah. I see this as just being really quite obvious for a person who under­stands it.

Now, what’s really fasci­nating is, as the price starts to run, let’s just say, my expec­ta­tion is by September, August timeframe, you might be… John might be firing up his 100K party DJ list and getting every­body ready, around that timeframe. So, that’s five X from where we are now. And if true, what’s really fasci­nating for MicroS­trategy is what their balance sheet looks like. And now, he’s in a position where his debt-to-equity is back down to probably a 0.2 again. So, now he can go to market again and issue more debt. That’s why I’m saying, let’s see how this shakes out. I think it’s hitting the market here in a week or two or something like that. So, let’s see what interest rate it comes in at, let’s see how subscribed the issuance will be, and then from there, I mean, it’s going to be fasci­nating to watch what happens in a year from now, because I see him hitting the copy and paste button on this idea. And I think that you’re going to start to see maybe some others do something similar.

You have to be in great debt condi­tion for the company to be doing this. If I was going to tell you what this is like for a person on the individual level, this is like a person with a million dollars in their bank account, and they don’t have any card debt, they don’t have any house payment, they don’t have any… That’s what we’re dealing with here with MicroS­trategy. That’s why they’re able to do this.

Brady Swenson:

Yeah.

Mark Moss:

Except for they put that million dollars into Bitcoin. They already lever­aged their whole treasury, but yeah.

Preston Pysh:

Well, but think about it. So, they put that money in the Bitcoin, but it’s not like that’s a liability. It’s not like… He doesn’t need that money. His company is still kicking off 30 million a year in free cash flows. That’s what was inter­esting about the CNBC inter­view. I don’t know her name, but… Do you know her… Does anybody know her name so we can… Whoever she was that inter­viewing him on CNBC. And she’s like, “Are you a hedge fund company, or a crypto hedge fund, or are you a software company?” And I’m thinking, “My god, you have no idea what you’re even asking this guy.” This dude is making $30 million a year. Does not care whether his Bitcoin position goes to zero, because guess what? He’s still making another 30 million the next year. Now, of course he doesn’t want to see it go down, but it’s not like he’s going to lose all of his clients in a hedge fund, because he has this insane amount of volatility.

That was a Wall Street, I work at a hedge fund question, and I’ve never run a real business in my entire life, and created a shred of value for the popula­tion, kind of question. Because only a person who manages other people’s money would ask a question like that because they’re worried about volatility and their clients taking their money away. But for somebody who runs a business and creates value, they could care less if there’s a lot of volatility. He banked it on his balance sheet.

Brady Swenson:

Melissa Lee, is the inter­view­er’s name.

Preston Pysh:

Melissa Lee, there you go. Yeah.

Brady Swenson:

Thanks to the chat. We’ve got 380 people watching right now. A lot of you are watching YouTube. Please smash that like button. It does help get this video out in front of more people in the algo, in the feed. And it makes a big differ­ence. Let’s get that Bitcoin talk out there, the good Bitcoin education.

Mark, let’s turn it over to you, man. Can you start by just kind of talking through the logis­tics. Somebody who doesn’t know much about finance, and how this played out or exactly what MicroS­trategy is doing, can you just kind of give us the, talk to me like I’m five, basics on what they’ve done here?

Mark Moss:

Yeah. Well, he’d basically discov­ered Bitcoin. I think he educated his board on Bitcoin, got every­body on board and he went all in. I mean, I got to love the convic­tion, so from the begin­ning, I mean he took his treasury. So as Preston made the case, he’s just gushing cashflow. So, accumu­lating a ton of cashflow and he called it like a melting ice cube. He didn’t want to sit on that cash. So, he went ahead and put all of that into Bitcoin. I believe, what happens is, once you get a little bit of skin in the game, you just start going down the rabbit hole, which he appears to have done, and he wants to go in deeper. And now it appears that he’s raising money to go buy more.

At this point, we’re kind of specu­lated on what is going to happen with that. There’s definitely a lot of questions to be asking and he’s blazing a trail at this point. Sometimes the pioneers get an arrow in the back so we have to be careful here. But it is inter­esting. Since he put his treasury into Bitcoin, we’ve seen the price of the stock go up, obviously the price of the Bitcoin has gone way up because he got in, I forget exactly what price it was, but it’s gone up consid­er­ably in US dollar value since he bought in. So the stock has done very well. Yeah it is about 11,000, so he’s almost doubled that position. It was about half a billion and so now he’s sitting on about a billion dollar. So it worked out really well. The stock was rewarded.

What was inter­esting, I thought, was now their stock has been downgraded and they took a massive hit. And so, that’s kind of inter­esting and we’ll see how that plays out. Another thing that I also think is inter­esting is that, as being a public company, he does have a fiduciary duty, and not every­body believes in Bitcoin, has the same convic­tion as we do here, obviously, as he does, putting his money where his mouth is. So, I think that’s definitely an inter­esting thing to see how that plays out.

I love what Preston said about the debt-to-equity ratio. So for sure, we’re in a debt based economy and so you’re rewarded for taking on debt. You can acquire that debt, it’s not income, you’re not paying tax on it, and as a matter of fact, it’s even a tax write off in most cases. And if this pays off, if Bitcoin does what we think it does and it goes up in value next year, then he brings the debt-to-equity ratio way back down again.

As far as what he’s doing, I guess, kind of to answer your question, I’m not exactly sure. I mean, I see people specu­lating for different things. Is he trying to create a Bitcoin ETF kind of in a round­about way? And basically to explain that, it’s an ETF, an exchange traded fund, would be an easy way that somebody could buy into Bitcoin through a stock. So, somebody that may have a 401k, IRA, something that, cannot buy Bitcoin directly, but still wants to get access to the price without having to store it, they could buy it through an ETF. In the Bitcoin space, we don’t have one yet. The regula­tors have not allowed us to do that. And so, some people are specu­lating maybe that’s what he’s trying to do. If he continues to acquire all of this Bitcoin, I could just buy the stock and I could do that through my 401k or some other type of a retire­ment account and get access to the Bitcoin price.

I’m not sure if we know exactly what he’s doing other than the specu­la­tion, but it’s definitely inter­esting. I would say, kind of Preston gave the example of if it was a person and you had a million dollars in the bank. This is a business, it’s a publicly traded business, I would typically tell people to never borrow money to go buy a specu­la­tive asset. But of course, another point that Preston brought up, he is gushing cashflow. So under­standing risk, managing risk is definitely a nuanced to argument, and somebody that has a high level of sophis­ti­ca­tion, especially somebody who is making a high level of income, can afford to be a little bit more risky. So even if the volatility goes down and is down for a while, he doesn’t really need that, he’s got plenty of cashflow coming in. And so, as a Bitcoin believer and believing where it’s going, I think it’s a great move. I’m super inter­ested to see where it goes, and we’ll have to watch and see.

Brady Swenson:

Yeah, totally. Preston, can you just describe what a convert­ible debt note is for the audience?

Preston Pysh:

Yeah. So, you issued some notes, it’s similar to a bond. They call it a note because the duration is five years. And all he does is he goes out into the public market. He says, “Hey, I’m going to issue you a bond at whatever percent.” Let’s just say, it’s… For simplicity we’ll just say it’s 5%. So he’ll pay that 2.5% two times a year, up until the five years, and then at the end of the five years, he either has to pay back the 400… It was $400 million, is what I think he’s going after. He has to pay back the $400 million at the end of the five years. If he elects to pay it off earlier, he can do that. And if he wants to, he can convert that into common stock instead of paying it back in cash. The way that it was written up, he has the option, he has the option, as MicroS­trategy, to convert them into common stock, or to pay them back with cash. And that’s it.

Brady Swenson:

Makes sense. So let’s get back to this idea of a specu­la­tive attack on Bitcoin. This is the way Pierre describes it in this article on Nakamoto Insti­tute. He says that, “A slow bleed of the fiat value…” Basically, which is what we’re seeing right now and it’s actually getting quite a bit faster. I’m not sure you can catego­rize it as slow anymore. “Leads to currency crisis. The expected value of Bitcoins solid­i­fies in people’s minds. At first they are conser­v­a­tive, they invest what they can afford to lose. After 12 to 18 months, their small stash of Bitcoins has dramat­i­cally increased in value. They see no reason why this long term trend should reverse. The funda­men­tals have improved, yet adoption still remains low. Confi­dence increases. They buy more Bitcoins. They ratio­nalize, “Well, it’s only one to 5% of my invest­ments.” They go all in and then the next step is to start taking out debt in the worst money, the money that’s losing value, and buy Bitcoin. And that’s drives basically the Bitcoin value up and the value of the fiat relative of the Bitcoin down and speeds up the transi­tion from the bad money to the good money.”

So, I see this as Saylor, having kicked off a couple of really impor­tant trends that we’ll see how fast either of them continue. But first, obviously the corpo­rate treasury narra­tive and idea, just to convert over to your cash on hand, over to Bitcoin. But then also, to take out debt to buy more Bitcoin. So, he’s setting that trend as well. And I would imagine the latter, is slower to take hold and would less popular among publicly traded compa­nies, especially. But I mean, he’s trail­blazing on both fronts here.

Preston Pysh:

I think he’s just being smart.

Brady Swenson:

Yeah.

Preston Pysh:

I just see this as being really obvious.

Brady Swenson:

Yeah. It’s-

Preston Pysh:

And I don’t see it as being risky at all. Not even in the least bit. So, if you’re kicking off $30 million a year. 10 years you can come up with $300 million. I mean, it’s just basic math. So, if he’s borrowing 400, so he’s a little over a 10 year payback. He’s sitting on… So, his Bitcoin position, back when it was 10,000 or 11,000, was $450 million or somewhere around in that ballpark. It’s nearly doubled at this point. Let’s just say it’s close to $800 million, he’s sitting in Bitcoin right now. So, as long as he still stays positive in his principle of that invest­ment, he can pay back this loan that he’s borrowing, one for one, liter­ally right away. There’s no concern of him doing that. And his company is still kicking off 30 million a year.

So, he’s just lever­aging the oppor­tu­nity that he was able to liter­ally double his retained earnings. The 30 years it spent him to make his retained earnings of $400 million, that he doubled in two months. That’s what happened. 30 years of work, he doubled it in two months. Now he’s going to go out and borrow some money against it. He can pay it back. He’s not being irrespon­sible. He can pay that back. That’s why, I guess, I’m looking at and I’m just saying, “I’m really curious how well subscribed the issuance is going to be.” Although I completely get what he’s doing. I’m kind of curious how Wall Street’s going to receive it, and what interest rate they think they’re going to be able to step into the market, especially because he’s coming out and saying, “I’m buying Bitcoin with it!” There’s no surprises, there’s none of that. So, it’s just going to be inter­esting to see what the terms of the deal is.

Brady Swenson:

Yeah.

Mark Moss:

What’s inter­esting is, as Preston said, there’s really no risk there. And so, he’s taking on debt to do this. So, really it’s the people that buy into that, we’ll see what happens with the issuance, but they’re the ones that are really taking the risk, somewhat. If for some reason we hit a downward trend in the volatility, whatever, and he doesn’t pay it back, he can just roll it into stock.

Preston Pysh:

I love this point because so many people don’t under­stand why Warren Buffett owns a company. Why didn’t Warren Buffett go work on Wall Street and have a hedge fund like every­body else? Why did he own a business? So, if I’m Michael Saylor and the market wants to penalize me for this and they want to crush my stock price, have at it, because guess what I’m going to do, I’m going to go out and buy long call options on my own stock. Dude, there’s so many things that you can do when the market misprices what it is you’re doing behind the scenes, like what Mark’s describing right there. You can murder it.

Mark Moss:

Yeah. And when you can borrow… I mean, we’ll see what he gets at. Like you said, we’ll see what the Street price is at at. But I mean, a couple of percent, I mean, it’s free money. It’s free money at this point. He’s already… I mean his profit margins are more than enough to pay off that note, if he needs to. At the end of the day, if he doesn’t want to change his mind, can’t, whatever, he rolls it into stock. I mean, there’s really almost no risk and kind of all upside for him at this point.

Preston Pysh:

Totally agree.

Brady Swenson:

Yeah.

Mark Moss:

I guess the only risk I would see is I would imagine not all the share­holders may share his same enthu­si­astic view, poten­tially. And he could poten­tially maybe… Well, for as many people as he might scare away, he’s probably attracting more. So maybe not, I guess. So that’s probably very little risk. It’s a very low risk all upside trade, I think.

Preston Pysh:

So when I look at this, I look at it with just a twinkle in my eye, because what I’m thinking is, “That’s why he controls all the voting rights. If you don’t like it, get the hell out.” And then when you sell your shares, I will be standing there ready to buy them with open arms, and levered in options. So, he can take advan­tage of the people who don’t under­stand what he’s doing, and boy let me tell you, it’s going to be juicy. That’s the advan­tage of doing this through a company vehicle, opposed to a hedge fund vehicle is because, in a hedge fund vehicle, every­body gives you the money at the wrong time. When you’re booming, they want to give you more and every­thing’s overvalued and you can’t buy it. When it’s under­valued and things stink, they’re taking money away from you. When you own a company and a business, you get to play on those emotions and lever it to your advan­tage, and that’s exactly what he’s going to do right here.

Mark Moss:

And kind of to your point earlier about Warren buffet, if they drive the price of the stock down, you can do some levered calls against that. And so, if you’re rubbing some of your investors the wrong way, they’re wanting to get out, brings the price of the stock down, you’ve just doubled your net worth on Bitcoin. You could buy your company back.

Preston Pysh:

That’s right.

Mark Moss:

And now you own all the Bitcoin.

Preston Pysh:

That’s right. He’s collecting equity. He’s stacking Bitcoins. If you don’t under­stand, come here, give me your shares. Give me your shares, I’ll buy them from you.

Mark Moss:

Yep.

Preston Pysh:

You want to penalize me in the market­place, please, I beg you. It’s ridiculous.

Brady Swenson:

And we saw a penalty today, the downgrade from the city analyst. And we saw what a 13 point drop, the last time I looked in the after­noon, in the stock price, of course, MSTR is still up 110% on the year. But I mean, that initial reaction that we were looking for, we got a hint of it today. And as Preston is saying, it seems ridiculous.

Mark Moss:

It kind of depends on what…

Brady Swenson: 

That just seems ridicu­lous, right?

Mark Moss:

It depends on what game he’s playing too. Obviously, he’s really into Bitcoin and it seems like he’s playing the long game. And so if he doesn’t really care about the short term price of his stock, then sure, send it down, I’ll buy it more. And it seems like that’s the case for him. A lot of CEOs we’ve seen, especially going into the pandemic, we’re doing all types of tricks, stock buybacks to push the price of the stock up so they can get those big bonuses. But he doesn’t seem to be worried about that. So he’s playing a totally different game than most of the CEOs on Wall Street are playing.

Preston Pysh:

That’s because most of the CEOs on Wall Street don’t own the majority of the company. They’re working for a bonus like you described. And so they’re trying to juice the quarterly results. When you own the equity of the business, you hope the market is penal­izing the price lower because then you can buy more stock. The only time the company makes money on the stock is when they issue it and try to raise funds, right?

Mark Moss:

Right.

Preston Pysh:

So I don’t know, I’m just looking at this and I’m just in total admira­tion of Michael, because I guess I’m looking at where he’s at in his life. He’s a lot older than where I’m at. I know what I’m doing with my business and how I play. It’s not on a public market, but I’d be looking at this and being like, “Oh my God, please sell it. Please sell it. I want to buy it from you.” Right?

Brady Swenson:

Yeah.

Preston Pysh:

It’s awesome.

Brady Swenson:

Yeah, It’s amazing. Division, the convic­tion is going to prove to be just an absolutely amazing move, a legendary move 10 years from now, I have no doubt. And it’s inter­esting, somebody on Twitter asked how you would price MicroS­trategy now, the stock, right? And Mark was alluding to that too, is MSTR becoming a bit of a de facto ETF for Bitcoin. And the numbers bear that out if the treasury has doubled in value, roughly and stocks up 110% seems to bear out that people are valuing this based on the Bitcoin price at this point. Would you agree with that valua­tion kind of method, Mark?

Mark Moss:

Well, I mean there’s obviously several different ways to value a company, but you could add up all their assets minus their debt and come up with a valua­tion. And so anytime you can buy a company at market, their market cap is less than the assets they have. That’s always a good deal. And so now their treasury assets have doubled, which means their company is worth more, which means now the stock is undervalued.

So, yeah I would say that’s definitely a good way that you can look at that. And I’m sure that had something to do with it. Obviously, it’s got massive PR going as well, which never hurts a stock as well. So, lots of more eyeballs coming in. I think… I don’t know, I haven’t seen any data that really shows anybody how much or if anybody, or how many people may have been using it for an ETF. I don’t know if any of you guys have seen any data on some mutual funds, 401(k)s et cetera, buying that stock. But for sure, like I said, when you can take the total assets, the net assets for less than the market cap, I mean that’s a good deal.

Brady Swenson (Host):

Yeah. I think that’s absolutely on point. Preston, I love the analysis that there’s no risk here. The chat absolutely agrees with you and they’re all blown away. This is such obvious move. I would imagine that he saw this play months and months ago. Andy Edstrom and Preston, had a show a few months ago, back in August, where they called this. They came up with the treasury and Andy was like, “You look, they’re throwing off cash, they can afford to take out some debt and buy more Bitcoin.” I wouldn’t be surprised if that happened. So, it was a great call. It was a great call.

Mark Moss:

Yeah, and per the move that he’s making is one thing that’s inter­esting is, I get 1,000s and 1,000s of comments on these videos that are talking about YouTube, I’m sorry, on my YouTube channel about Bitcoin. And I see the same old arguments over and over. And one comment that I see quite often is why doesn’t the federal govern­ment just print or the Fed just come up with a trillion dollars of debt and go buy all the Bitcoin as well?

And so taking that, and it was what Saylor’s do and taking some debt going to buy Bitcoin. The Fed could do that as well. We obviously talked about Rashard PR’s comments. The one thing that I always have countered that with is sure, I mean, obviously they can print a couple of trillion bucks, they just did it. But how many of the strong hands true believers are going to give up their Bitcoin? So then it’s inter­esting talking about that specu­late attack or what Saylor’s strategy is like, how far can he go? At what point are we really going to start running out of the weak hands?

Brady Swenson:

This is a great point. Something I’ve been talking about lately that we’re entering a cycle where the narra­tive of Bitcoin as a store of value has become much more widespread, much more trusted. You see it on CNBC, just about every day. Big investors talking about it, that this is a store of value. Even Ray Dalio is coming around, we can talk about that here in just a little bit, that Bitcoin may be an alter­na­tive store value to gold and that’s taking hold. So, if that’s the case, then bigger investors who are experi­enced and under­stand these sound monies as with the fixed or reliable issuance rates. Infla­tion rates are a hedge against a very uncer­tain monetary future in this world.

I mean, at least you’re talking five, 10 years from now. I think we’re pretty certain what’s going to happen in the next year or so. But, I mean who knows how long that can continue? And it makes sense to have that hedge and you have to hold it long-term in order for that specu­la­tion as a hedge against the dollar and against infla­tion, you got to hold it for the long-term.

So these are big experi­enced investors. They know what they’re getting into. They’re not, I don’t think, going to be buying it in order to flip it when we hit a blow off top. Now, I also think that retail and just normies, plebs like myself, like us here are going to be buying and holding too. That narra­tive is spread. So I think we’re going to have stronger hands this time around, a lot more stronger hands, that floor is going to raise.

What do you guys think about that? I’m calling it the hodl FOMO cycle, because people are going to just FOMO into this idea of hodling. They’re going to get it. We’re out there in force educating about this and it seems to be spreading. What do you think, Preston?

Preston Pysh:

I think you got it. When you get insti­tu­tional buyers, when you get corpo­ra­tions putting this on their balance sheet, they’re going to be a lot different than the way people held this in the previous cycles, which were a lot of traders. I mean, I feel like I have a very company focus mindset with the way that I buy it. Man, I just buy it and I don’t ever try to put it back on the market in time, the sell and repur­chase. I just buy it and put it on my balance sheet and just stays there.

And that’s what you see Michael doing. I think anybody that has a large capital­ized company, they’re not going to be trying to trade this. I mean, this is laugh­able. And so in this cycle you have people stepping in with substan­tial sums of money that are wanting exposure to protect themselves to base… They’re trying to protect themselves against the basement. That’s just the bottom line. That’s why they’re holding the position. So they’re not there to trade it. They’re not there to make an extra couple percent. And I just think that it’s going to be drasti­cally different on this, on this bull run.

Brady Swenson:

Yeah, I agree completely.

Mark Moss:

Yeah. I would say the same. I mean, we can see how different this run we’re having right now 2020 as versus 2017. One of the best ways to look at is just in the Google Trends search data, Google Trend data. Last time I looked, we were like around where we were in May of 2017 with about three to five million searches when Bitcoin was about a thousand bucks. At the height of that in December 2017, we were like 45 million searches. So, we’re a long way from that. And I think that’s a good data-driven way to look at it.

Just as a side note. I mean, I was talking to one of my media guy that lives down the Cayman islands today and he pays atten­tion and he’s like, “I’ve been looking and searching. I don’t really see a lot of people talking about it.” He’s like, “It doesn’t seem like on YouTube and stuff, it’s getting the hype that it used to get.” And so that shows that we had the retail FOMO in 2017 and now it’s insti­tu­tional FOMO. And for sure they are different.

I think obviously as the market cap gets bigger, I think the volatility goes down, but the makeup of the person buying the volatility goes down. So when you had that retail FOMO, the traders that are in there, but obviously some of those people probably put in money and they shouldn’t. They can’t afford to risk, right? And they need that money. It drops in value, whatnot. Now we have these people that, types of investors that have that long-term approach. They’re not putting in money they can’t afford to let sit there for a long period of time. So I think we’ll see volatility come down. I think we’re going to really see a shift here.

Preston Pysh:

Brady. I would add, I think the reason that you’re not hearing the buzz, like if you’d go do a Google search for Bitcoin and you look at the numbers relative to where we were at in 2017. It’s nowhere near the hype that you had back then. The reason why is because in the 2017 cycle, you were hitting 20,000 and it came from $200. Okay. The bottom of that cycle was $200.

So when you look at 100X move, percentage-wise, it’s going to have a lot of hoopla on the internet, this cycle, we got down to 3,000, right? So for us to be at another 100X move, we got to be at $300,000 bitcoin. Let me tell you if we’re a $300,000 Bitcoin, everyone and their kid sister on the internet is going to be talking right. We’re nowhere near that right now. We’re not even close.

Brady Swenson:

Yeah. I was trying to pull up this chart and having trouble doing it. I’ll see if I can get it up in a minute, but I can just describe it. It’s the balance of Bitcoin on exchanges is just plummeting over the past year and a half. And compared to the previous cycle, it’s, signif­i­cantly longer and signif­i­cantly more Bitcoin being pulled off exchanges.

And it’s absolutely notice­able. So, that piece of data combined with, we’re not really seeing the search volume yet on Google. So, to really explain this price rise, it says every­thing you need to know from, if you want the data to prove out this hypoth­esis, there it is. There’s a lot more. Bitcoin being bought and then taken off for long-term cold storage presumably.

Mark Moss:

Definitely, definitely. I think that was one of the Saylor’s comments he was inter­viewed, was it BTC magazine or somebody and made a couple of comments and one was get rid of these traders. The traders that are constantly pushing the market up and down, up and down, up and down. And so, yeah. Well, like I said, I think we’ll see that volatility start to slow down a little bit.

Yeah. I mean, Bitcoin’s a very liquid asset. There’s roughly 3 million Bitcoin out there in any given day. That’s changing hands and avail­able liquidity pool for purchase. And the thing to me that would really make a big differ­ence in terms of price would be to whittle away, even, 10%, 15% at that historic avail­ability of Bitcoin on any given day. Then you really see the squeeze on supply and push the price up quite a bit.

So that’s what I’m going to be looking for over the next year or two. So there’s a… Go ahead if somebody else, sorry. I think I cut somebody off. Nope. Okay. So let’s move on to talking about some other news that’s been out there in Ether, the Bitcoin, I don’t want to say Bitcoin Ether. What I say that, that’s a strange combi­na­tion of the Bitcoin. Yeah. Just in the atmos­phere let’s call it.

The treasury has recently had a meeting and talking about… Well I mean the overar­ching thing here is that we’re seeing countries start to talk more about how to approach Bitcoin from a regula­tory stand­point. So there’s been lots of talk and various ends of pro-regula­tion or anti-regula­tion. We’ve seen the acting director of the Office of the Comptroller of the Currency was on CNBC late last week, I believe.

And talking about how there’s… no one’s talking or thinking about banning Bitcoin, we need to embrace it as a technology and learn how to regulate it in in a way that will allow the technology to flourish here in the United States. I think the argument that the internet, the United States sort of approached the emerging technology of the internet in a way that was hands, stand­offish in terms of regula­tion and look how it’s benefited this country.

We have the biggest internet compa­nies in the world, all located here in United States. I think selling Bitcoin to regula­tors in a similar way is going to make sense. We see increased KYC regula­tions coming in France. Talking about issuing a decree to basically make every exchange ramp up on KYC, including the peer to peer exchanges, which would be hodl hodl, or bisque style, or how local Bitcoins used to operate citing and this is the impor­tant part, I think terrorism as the reason. Right?

And so the politics of fear, I think, could be used to regulate Bitcoin in a way that’s could be negatively affect the network, set it back or whatever for a year or two or three years, whatever. Slow things down. We see some of that talk also from incoming members of the Biden admin­is­tra­tion. So what do you guys think on like the regula­tory environ­ment surrounding Bitcoin right now? Where do you think things are going to go in the next year or two? Preston, do you want to kick that one off?

Preston Pysh:

I was hoping you were going to say Mark.

Brady Swenson:

Mark, you want to kick that one off?

Mark Moss:

I’ll jump if you want. I think, I mean, you really set the stage pretty good there. I think of it in two ways. So one, at least in the United States, and I would imagine in most of the world, the politi­cians are lobbied, right? So we have special interest groups that lobby and get their will. A lot of the bills that get put forth aren’t written by lawmakers, but they’re written by lobby groups. And one of the largest groups of lobby, people lobbying the govern­ment is the finan­cial insti­tu­tions, right? The finan­cial industry.

And what I’ve seen is that there’s all these finan­cial insti­tu­tions have come into Bitcoin. They built Bitcoin products and all of these things. They all want in. They’ve spent, I would imagine collec­tively billions of dollars to get into the Bitcoin space already. And so I can’t imagine that they would just sit back and watch it be made illegal. Right? They’re going to do every­thing they can.

So I think we have enough people on the side of Bitcoin that would prevent it from going illegal. So I think really the route is, as you were setting the stage for really, it’s all about regula­tion of it. And then we have to think about what regula­tions that are and how much regula­tion they can really put into it. KYC on exchanges, I guess. Okay. Whatever, I mean they already have our KYC on bank accounts. I’m not so worried about the KYC. They know I have it, I reported all my taxes anyway. But they can’t take it from me.

So, that is the point that I started getting worried about when they start talking about regulating nodes, they start talking about regulating wallets and things like that. And that is where I believe we start to have a problem. And I haven’t really seen a lot of that right now, but they know I have it, I’m reporting it anyway. I’m sure I can claim it in a boating accident or whatever, but they know I have it, but regulating the wallets, regulating the nodes. I think in that bill you’re talking about, they’re talking about stable coins, but I think they even said like even running a node on a network could make you liable, which seems completely ridiculous.

So we’ll have… If they can regulate buying it and they know who has it okay, one thing, but if they can regulate how you can hold it and how you can transfer it, then that is going to be a problem that we have. Now, that being said, like the finan­cial industry, I think would prevent it from being shut down. That being said, I think we all under­stand the battle that Bitcoin has.

And so all the power really comes back down to who has control of the money as Mayer Rothschild said right, “I care not who makes nation’s laws as long as I control the money.” Or something like that. And so really it’s all the power of the world comes to who controls the money. And this goes into another conver­sa­tion, but how the IMS calling for Bretton Woods too and really we’re seeing like all the money trying to be consol­i­dated, maybe this takeover of the bankers.

And so Bitcoin threatens that. Bitcoin is the challenger. And so ultimately at some point we’re heading for the ultimate battle. And so I do under­stand the challenge that it has in front of it. At some point, I know some people say, “Well, we won’t have that battle.” I think Ralph Paul said, “Maybe when we get to 10 trillion they’ll worry about it.” But at some point that battle is going to come to a head. But for now, hopefully I don’t think they’re going to be making it illegal. They’re saying they’re not going to make it illegal. And hopefully we don’t get regula­tions on the wallets and things like that.

Brady Swenson:

Yeah. The big negative would be making self-custody illegal. That’s the one that I think Bitcoiners are really worried about, right? And the idea that the Bitcoin is not… The privacy aspects of Bitcoin aren’t neces­sary and that we just need to play. This is one thing that I was disagreeing with Saylor about a couple of things. One was, we don’t really need to worry about using Bitcoin as a medium of exchange. It’s just a store of value. Should be that way forever.

And I was responding like, “Look, we need to have a place to opt out of the payments panop­ticon.” That’s really impor­tant. That’s a part of Bitcoin that we should really hold dear, is its ability to provide more privacy and just be kind of self-sover­eign payments. And then the other one that we really just need to play nice with all the regula­tors. And I get his argument. I know where he’s coming from. He’s made a huge invest­ment. He’s a public company. Every­thing that he does has to be completely disclosed and all the laws for all of us holding it mean that we have to disclose it as well.

But when it comes to making self-custody illegal, for instance, I think Saylor would even agree that that is a bridge too far. So I think we at that point have to fight.

Mark Moss:

I didn’t like those comments, several of those comments that were made rubbed me the wrong way a little bit, because if you under­stand again, what the battle that Bitcoin is heading to fight and why it’s impor­tant, I don’t see how you can make those state­ments. Specif­i­cally, he said, “You have to stop talking about being censor­ship resis­tant.” But that’s it, that’s the whole point, right?

We need the money that’s sover­eign, that can’t be taken, can’t be seized. And we need the money that we can send to people that can’t be stopped, blocked or prevented. That’s the revolu­tion. That’s the whole revolu­tion. It’s not just another asset that can make us money. Obviously some people are coming in for the money today, but obviously a lot of old Bitcoiners have that ideology. And so he said, “Yeah, stop talking about censor­ship-resis­tant. Nobody wants to know about that.” And I think that’s what the ethos, we need to continue to push that. So we’ll see what happens.

Preston Pysh:

I think it’s really hard to specu­late on exactly what’s going to happen in which country and when. But what I would like to discuss is the long game theory of all of this, which is a law is only as good as as the enforce­ment that accom­pa­nies it. So we can come up with as many laws as we want, restricting nodes, self-custody, whatever, right? But you can’t enforce it because the technology is too powerful with the encryp­tion behind, it just does not enable that, right? You can’t enforce either one of those two things, regulating the nodes or regulating the self-custody portion of it is.

So what’s going to happen in the long-term game theory, is that there’s going to be countries that don’t take that position and they’re going to benefit tremen­dously from it. Now let’s say a country comes out and starts to regulate it in an aggres­sive way in either one of those two fronts. What’s going to happen? And especially if it’s a country like the United States or a country that has a lot of fiat behind it. You’re going to see the price take a massive hit in the short term.

I don’t know how it could happen any other way. Will it last? I don’t think it’ll last. And the reason I don’t think it’ll last is because I think when you dig into how the number go up, technology works, and this is getting into the diffi­culty adjust­ment the four you’re having how it’s tied to, my opinion the miners are setting the floor on the price action. As long as the hash rate keeps going up. All of those things are going to continue to drive the price higher and higher and higher.

I think that that is why you’re going to see the countries who don’t overreg­u­late it, are going to continue to benefit from it. Their citizens will continue to benefit from it. And I think the game theory will force whoever does take an overly aggres­sive regula­tory stance to have to undo their position. And I mean, come on I think it was in the summer of 2017 when the big announce­ment came out with China banning Bitcoin. Massive hit for that month or whatever, and no impact whatso­ever. Now of course, China isn’t anything like as if the United States would come out and say something like that. But I truly believe that the impact would be the exact same. The long game, is that this thing’s going to continue to prove that it’s unstoppable.

Mark Moss:

Yeah. I’d like to add, I mean, that’s exactly what gives me hope for the future. As we see this author­i­tarian world coming in on us with technology. It seems the only thing that can really break that is compe­ti­tion, free market compe­ti­tion. So another country says, “Hey, you may be locked down living in a telltale Unitarian night­mare in your country, but you can come free over here.” And so we can go to that country now. In the past, we would have to go penniless.

And I have friends whose families came from Iran or Afghanistan or South Africa and came penni­less. They couldn’t carry their gold, couldn’t get their bank accounts out. They couldn’t bring the real estate, but now we have a technology that can allow us to move our wealth. So, that will speed up that compe­ti­tion. And that game theory as Preston calls it, which is exactly right. And I think we’ll start to see that accel­erate pretty quickly.

The other thing that I would just say, and I know this is swans mission as well as to get as many people into Bitcoin as possible. And that’s accel­er­ating pretty fast, especially now with PayPal coming in 350 million users et cetera. And we could have a billion users by next year. And if a billion people don’t want Bitcoin to be illegal, Bitcoin ain’t going to be illegal, right? That’s a billion people. So I think at some point, and this is a little bit off topic, but I see so many people online just bowing down and, “Oh, they’re going to do this to us. They’re going.…

… people online just kind of bowing down and, “Oh, they’re going to do this to us. They’re going to ban this. They’re going to ban that,” and it’s like, wait a minute, wait a minute. What? If we don’t want it to be illegal, it shouldn’t. But ultimately, I believe in that free market kind of game theory and I think it’s going to prevail.

Preston Pysh:

When you talk KYC, a lot of people get very emotional around this topic. Where I think the focus needs to be on the KYC front is on the corpo­rate stand­point. All these tax laws are set up, so that a corpo­ra­tion can stand up and act as if it has its own social security number just like an individual person. That way, that it has all these risk reducing attrib­utes from a legal stand­point as a company. So if you want to KYC something, KYC the compa­nies that are sticking hundreds of millions of dollars on their balance sheet. Then on the individual level, focus on sales tax. They’ve got to adjust how they’re going to generate revenues for the states by under­standing the technology first and then customizing it in a way that doesn’t take individual people’s rights, but it then focuses… It regulates or it looks at the company specifically.

Trust me. I’ve got Bitcoin on my compa­ny’s balance sheet. I don’t want higher taxes. That’s not what I’m promoting here, but if they want to know every nitnoid thing about my company, sure. Have at it. I don’t care. On the individual level, if I’ve got a lot of Bitcoin on the individual level, well sales tax me when I go out and buy a boat or whenever I go buy a fancy car, whenever I go buy a house or whatever. At that point of the sale is where that collec­tion and that revenue needs to be gener­ated. That’s how they need to think.

Mark Moss:

Yeah, I agree. To Brady’s point earlier, what they’ll use is terrorism. So it’s always some sort of fear that they can instill in us to try to get us to act. We can see how wrong that is, like the average person with their couple thousand dollars is going to promote terrorism when we see banking reports where they’re liter­ally laundering billions of dollars for cartels and terror­ists. So when you talk about, Preston, when you talk about the corpo­ra­tions, they’re the ones like Sailor with a billion dollars. Maybe that needs to be scruti­nized a little bit more, but the average person with their thousands of dollars or even tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars, how much risk is that really going to be?

Preston Pysh:

Just thinking of it in predo principle, 80% of the value is captured from 20% of the effort. So when you look at where’s 20% of the value locked up around the world? Man, you got to focus on the compa­nies. You got to focus on those compa­nies in order to tap them for the revenue and to really fully know what they’re doing with those coins. I don’t know. I just look at it that from that vantage point, and I think, “Hey, give the individ­uals the freedom to go out and do things,” and if they’ve got a lot of Bitcoin, there’ll be spending a lot of Bitcoin. That’s where you collect your tax.

Mark Moss:

Both of your cameras seem to have messed up. I don’t see either of you. I don’t know if I’m the only one seeing that.

Preston Pysh:

No. I’m seeing you and Mark.

Mark Moss:

Yeah, I think we’re good. Sorry about that, Mark. Yeah, sorry about that. Go ahead. What about if they do try to regulate the wallets and nodes, for example, and then only approved nodes can run trans­ac­tions. Obviously, we’ve already seen Iran starting to use Bitcoin in a bunch of different ways through trade and mining, et cetera. So they’re obviously a black­listed country. We saw that happen with Venezuela when they tried to do that petrodollar years ago. So then your node runs a trans­ac­tion from a black­listed company like Iran. So now, all of a sudden, you kind of get this fractured database of nodes that run like whitelisted or black­listed. Have you guys have you guys thought about that and kind of how you see that navigating?

Brady Swenson:

Yeah, I absolutely have and I think that that’s an outcome that regula­tors, or at least some regula­tors, might want to see happen because I think it would create two different markets and this is… Been talking about with the corners for a long time, tainted coins versus fully KYC legal coins out there and that could cause an issue. I think it’s certainly a risk and something that we need to watch out for. I think we can… There’s, like you said, there’s game theory out there that can help with this. Once we get a large enough minority, a vocal minority of people out there owning Bitcoin, we can kind of fight against that idea, but it’s going to be a hard one.

I think it’s going to be a hard one to fight against because the politics of fear are extremely strong and using the black market Bitcoins and really demonizing them from polit­ical pulpits could be a problem and really raise, I think, public opinion against these black market Bitcoins. We have to kind of pull those into the regulated Bitcoin market. I think that could be a risk. I think there are ways that we can fight against it, even on the protocol level by sort of baking in more privacy into the base layer. The light­ning network obviously, is just built from the ground up much more privately with onion routing kind of in the protocol itself and basically, making it hard or even impos­sible to tell whether or not acquain­tance, “tainted.” Preston, you have any thoughts on that? Other­wise, we’ll move on.

Preston Pysh:

No, I just would describe it as that’s pretty much the system you have today, but it’s done with cash versus money that runs through all of your tradi­tional banks, that digital money that runs through your banks. It’s the same exact thing we have today. The only change that’s going to occur is with this, you’re able to move the, “cash,” a whole lot easier than you were histor­i­cally where you’re trying to carry around a million dollars of cash. It’s a little more diffi­cult. But if I was going to counter-argue with myself, I think the trace­ability of this is way more diffi­cult for a criminal because if you’re running an FBI sting and you’re putting a million dollars into some drug money, you’re keeping track of the serial number on each one of those pieces of cash that you’re putting into this system or this quandary dilemma or whatever. With Bitcoin, it’s tracked into perpe­tuity from the begin­ning of the genesis block. Right? I would tell you that if the govern­ment’s wanting to track things, why create these two different systems when their ability to go and analyze the blockchain is probably going to lead to way more under­standing as to who is connected to who that’s a bad actor?

Mark Moss:

It’s a good point.

Preston Pysh:

I don’t know.

Brady Swenson:

No, I agree with that. The discus­sion about… There’s a lot of other reasons why it can be impor­tant. It should be impor­tant, I think, to maintain trans­parency on the base layer and that’s certainly one of them. Another one is being able to audit the supply, which is a massive deal, is that’s one of the core value propo­si­tions of Bitcoin is the fixed supply. So that’s impor­tant. Moving privacy enhancing ways to move Bitcoin around the planet onto second layers, third layers is the way to go. That’s what core devs have decided to do. I think that’s the right choice. Let’s move on to… We’ve got a share. First of all, we have this chart that I was talking about and I’m going to have Brookie screen share because it wasn’t working for me. Can you go over to the… Yeah. Go ahead and click on the chart, so it comes up full screen. All right.

Brady Swenson:

So here’s that chart I was talking about. You can just see the massive dip, a drop in Bitcoin avail­able on exchanges, just precip­i­tous drop. So I’m going to be keeping an eye on this stat. You can use Glassnode to generate charts like this. It’s really easy. The free tier kind of leaves off the most recent couple of months, but there’s some really good analysts out there that are posting these kinds of charts on a regular basis. Cole Garner is one of them who posted this chart. Then I wanted to talk this article. Actually, it’s a survey that is done by Spencer Bogart, Blockchain Capital, every so often and they ran the survey and they just published the results December 2nd.

They run the survey from October 7th through 9th in 2020 this year and it shows… It’s really inter­esting because it shows kind of three phases of moving through Bitcoin adoption. So there’s the learning phase, which is aware­ness, famil­iarity, percep­tion, and then the convic­tion phase, convic­tion, prefer­ence rates, purchase propen­sity, and then the adoption phase owners and users. So if we go to the fall 2020 highlights, which is kind of a gray box right there. So more than one in three Ameri­cans say they’re likely to buy Bitcoin in the next five years, 34%. That includes 55% of the younger cohort, 18 to 34.

Mark Moss:

They better get in sooner than five years.

Brady Swenson:

For real. I think that number is going to be going up. All of these will be going up and they have since the last survey in 2018, and we’ll take a look at that in just a minute, but that’s fasci­nating to me. In terms of prefer­ence, rates for younger gener­a­tions among those aged 18 to 34, 38% refer to a thousand dollars of Bitcoin, $2000 of govern­ment bonds, 35%, thousand dollars Bitcoin to $1000 stocks, 33% over real estate and 31% over gold. So it’s about a third across the board would prefer to own Bitcoin than other invest­ment assets. If we scroll down just a little more, Brookie, go through learning phase and then convic­tion phase, which is the next section down. This is really fascinating.

We can maybe zoom in on this chart here. You can see. So fall of 2020, the orange is the most recent survey. Spring 2019 is the blue, and gray is fall of 2017. You can just see this very steady increase in the convic­tion rates. Look at the blue lines going all the way up. Sorry, the orange line is going up. So we have people moving into more of a convic­tion phase where they’re thinking about it, they’re talking about purchase propen­sity. They’re convicted and moving into adoption phase more quickly. So this is a big increase and something definitely worth noting. I thought maybe we could talk about these demographic trends, especially the younger folks, 18 to 34 cohort, really showing a strong prefer­ence for Bitcoin as an invest­ment asset.

Preston Pysh:

Brady, your first chart there where you were showing the exchange quanti­ties of coins on the exchange going down, I think it helps confirm what we were talking about earlier, which is these insti­tu­tional buyers are buying these, they’re putting them into cold storage, and they’re using it as an infla­tion hedge or protec­tion based on all the debase­ment that’s happening around the world with central banks. When I see that chart, that’s what it tells me. Now, whether that’s true or not, who knows? But that’s how I’m inter­preting that chart. They’re not keeping on the exchanges to trade it. They’re just buying it and putting it on their balance sheet and it’s locked away.

Brady Swenson:

Yeah. I think that’s going to be a massive trend that’s going to have very shocking effects on the price. It’s going to squeeze out that supply and that can really drive up massive price runs that I think will really surprise and create FOMO. Whereas in the last cycle, the FOMO is really just for short-term Fiat gains. I think this cycle, people will under­stand that the prices is going up because the avail­able supply is being squeezed and that’s because people are hobbling and big investors are hobbling. So I better start doing that too because this is just going and it’s not going to come back down a much. Maybe we reached that escape velocity from that trend that Preston and I had been talking about on this show on his many appear­ances at this point.

Preston Pysh:

You know what’s nice, Brady? Is there is no shortage of Bitcoin on these exchanges. Because of the visibility, there is no shortage of Bitcoin on these exchanges. There’s plenty of merchants. There might not be cold coins.

Brady Swenson:

Exactly. Exactly. That’s true. Yeah. It’s just going to take you more and more dollars to get those sats.

Preston Pysh:

Let me jump in on the second part there.

Brady Swenson:

Please do.

Preston Pysh:

I don’t really pay too much atten­tion to that. I think it’s inter­esting that you’re pulling up the stats. I think every­body knows that they’ve heard of this. They’ve seen it. Whether they’re familiar with it or not, I don’t know. I’m just looking at it from this lens. It went to a thousand and it created some hoopla on CNBC and every­one’s like, “Oh, this is inter­esting.” People were using magic internet money and they think it’s real. Then it crashed and they’re all like, “What a bunch of idiots?” That was kind of the narra­tive. Then it surged up to $20000 and people were like, “What in the world is this?” It’s a double pump on tulips. Sorry. It’s it’s the double pump on tulips. Then it crashed, and then they got their second chest beat of, “What a bunch of idiots? These people are so dumb. It lost 80% of its value. What are they thinking?” Now—

Brady Swenson:

We’re thinking, “Buy, buy, buy, buy.”

Preston Pysh:

Now, the third time’s the charm. The third time after a decade of tulips, and now, it’s at $20000 and just this week, the headline on CNBC is the dollar being dethroned with a picture of a Bitcoin with a crown on it. On prime time CNBC, that’s the headline and that’s what they were discussing. Not only were they discussing that, the guy who was on talking about it was a fixed income guy saying, “People were pulling money out of the negative yielding fixed income market to the tune of $16 or $18 trillion dollars.”

Brady Swenson:

I love it when Preston does that.

Preston Pysh:

A trillion dollars, $18, $16 to $18, whatever it is now. You can’t even keep track of it. It’s total monopoly made up money anymore. That’s where some of the flows are coming from. Okay? So what happens when this goes to 50, or it goes to a hundred, or it goes higher than that? What in the world do we think the headlines are going to sound like? It’s not like it’s happening for the first time or that it’s three years old. We’re in a totally different situa­tion than we were histor­i­cally. So we can pull up these charts with these numbers and every­thing and I think that it’s all great. I think people are definitely hearing about it more, but nothing will capture somebody’s atten­tion more than, “Hey, there’s some crazy people out there spending a hundred thousand dollars on an imagi­nary coin,” and it just keeps on happening. It’s not just random people. It’s Larry Fink talking about it. It’s Stan Druck­en­miller talking about it. Maybe Ray Daleo talking about it. Bill Miller talking about it. The list just keeps going on and on and on.

So that’s what I’m looking at and that’s where when I’m looking at this punching through 20 and contin­uing to go, the thing that I’m saying to myself, it’s not just that the number’s going up anymore. It’s that the numbers going up and then behind that subject of the Bitcoin going up is a backdrop of sheer flipping chaos, sheer chaos in the bond market, central banks printing another $5 billion. I’m sorry. $5 trillion. The numbers are so big, they’re like imagi­nary. We’re just making them up because, “Oh, we’ve got PPP loans we’re going to hand out to every­body,” and you know what? I want people… These businesses are hurting. They’re hurting. They need cashflow. That cashflow is going to supply the liquidity into the new system. That’s just how it’s going to play out. These businesses need this or they’re going to go bankrupt. Evidently, every hedge fund on Wall Street also needs it. Get that. That was a fasci­nating one. All these guys out there doing inter­views on podcasts about how brilliant they are as capital alloca­tors and they’re all taken out PPP loans.

That’s your backdrop. Your backdrop is a dumpster fire along with Bitcoin gun to a hundred thousand.

Mark Moss:

Like Buffet said, “When the tide goes out, you see who’s swimming naked,” and they all got to expose this swimming naked. To add on to Preston’s point, there was also a report I was looking at, I forget it was Citi or JP that put out, but they showed all the gold flows, all the gold funds, ETFs selling off and going into Bitcoin as well. You can see that through gray scale. So you can look at Fidelity and look at some of those. So we see not just maybe some of that negative yielding bonds as Preston pointed out, which is obviously a good use case, but also gold. It’s been an ongoing trend. So the name of the game, we have the boomers, the largest segment of the popula­tion and they all need yield. They need income and they’re all retiring right now. They’re all trying to get yield and all the pension funds that are adding up and social security, and they’re all based off the 7% yield and there’s no yield and every­body’s just searching for yield, yield, yield.

At the same time, because of all the money printing and they brought interest rates to zero or negative. If I’m a sover­eign or a hedge fund and insti­tu­tion and I have hundreds of billions or whatever dollars and I’m putting in that into T‑bills or bonds and I’m earning zero, why would I be guaran­teed to have no yield when I could just move it into gold? Or now, like I said, we’re seeing gold funds move into Bitcoin. So that’s definitely accel­er­ating it and I think… Well, obviously, COVID has accel­er­ated all of this, accel­er­ated almost every area of life working from home using Zoom, but even this trend as well.

It’s almost like the govern­ment, the fed, whatever you want to call it, they really have no choice. People need liquidity as Preston just pointed out. So they have no choice. They have to print the money, but by doing this, they just continue to push the use case and kind of do the marketing for another alter­na­tive asset like Bitcoin. So they have no choice. They have to do it, but the more they do it, the more they make the case for it and the more they’re pushing people over into it. So it’s all coming together perfectly.

Preston Pysh:

I’m in the mood to rant. So I’m just going to rant.

Mark Moss:

Yeah, man. Please do it.

Preston Pysh:

The central bank digital curren­cies come up in the chat, right? So riddle me this. How in the world are we going to issue these central bank digital curren­cies that are completely centrally controlled by every govern­ment around the world, and they’re not going to debase those? Do we really think they’re going to create yet another type of digital money that has blockchain in the title of it and all of a sudden, all of our fiscal appro­pri­a­tors are going to become respon­sible just by the snap of a finger and some magic dust can work, clapping and we can fly now. It’s insane. It’s totally mind-numbing insane for people to think that fiscal policy is going to just magically become respon­sible. It’s never. So they have to keep greasing the skids. I don’t care if they call it a central bank digital currency, they call it whatever they’ve been calling it, they call it something else, the most trusted token ever in existence.

Preston Pysh:

They’re going to debase it and they’re going to debase it because they have to debase it because we’re at a point, we’re at an end game where they have printed so much money and they have created so much defla­tion, price defla­tion, that the only thing they can do at this point is keep printing because every­one’s levered up to their eyeballs. There’s no free cash flows for all these zombie compa­nies that they keep propping up. As long as that’s the case, they’re going to have to keep on printing. If they have to keep on printing, something that is completely decen­tral­ized will win as long as it has a fixed baseline of units to it. That’s Bitcoin. So there’s your central bank digital currency debacle. You’re going to hear all these fancy people who have these academic PhDs and all this crap talk about how all the govern­ments are going to come together and they’re going to have these central bank digital curren­cies. It’s going to rock Bitcoin’s world. They are so talking out there behind that it’s insane.

Mark Moss:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It’s a story throughout history, right? The govern­ment figures out a way. The Roman empire figures out a way to clip their coins and create more currency and they go until they blow. Eventu­ally, nobody accepts it anymore. We’ve seen that story play out over and over and over again. Yeah, exactly. They’re not going to wake up tomorrow and decide to live on a budget. They can’t. They can’t and why would they? Why would they give up that power to create more money and enrich themselves? And of course, human nature won’t allow that and the need won’t allow that as well.

So they have no choice. They’re going to keep going until they blow. At some point, and we don’t know if that’s a year or 50 years, but at some point, it all ends. It doesn’t work anymore because it can’t work. They’re going to have to figure something out and then they’ll start over again. They’re going to try, but it’s definitely Bitcoin that changes that cycle and at least gives us that life raft where we can get off of that game that they’re playing. Yah, it’s going to be inter­esting to see how hard they go.

Preston Pysh:

Okay. So when I used to fly, this was called fire for effect. That means your rounds are hitting and now it’s time to really hit the target. So here’s my final one, and this is for gold. How in the world do we think that we’re going to step and peg whatever made up currency we want to make to gold and that we’re knocking debase it against that gold? Name me a time in history when gold has actually supplied of peg that has lasted.

Preston Pysh:

Supplied of peg, that has lasted. Zero.

Brady Swenson:

Not for very long.

Preston Pysh:

There’s a reason we as the United States, came off a gold standard in 1971, there’s a reason why. It’s almost like gold bugs don’t ever want to talk about that situa­tion that we actually came off of a gold… Why did we come off a gold standard? Because, we had to debase the currency and push it in the circu­la­tion against the number of ounces we had in storage. If you think that that human in the loop is going to magically be stern and not allow that debase­ment to occur. All of a sudden, even though it has never happened, even once in human history, you are kidding yourself.

This is the first time in history of mankind that a technology has been able to supply something decen­tral­ized, that will peg the number of units. And there’s no human that can step in and debase it. So, for everyone out there with their gold, “Hey, it might do well, it might go up a couple percent, it might go up 20% in next three years.” I don’t know. But I’m looking at it and I just don’t get it. I don’t get it. Maybe I’m avalange.

Mark Moss:

Well, and to your point, the problem with gold is because of its size and weight it requires central­iza­tion. And so I like to say that central­iza­tion always leads to manip­u­la­tion. And so, we have to take the thing out of the hands of the govern­ment. That’s what Hayek said. And so, this not only is it something outside the system, but because it’s decen­tral­ized, nobody controls it. And because nobody controls it, nobody is able to manip­u­late it. Because, as you made the point and I agree, someone’s always going to do it.

If there’s a way to debase it, to make more money, create money out of air… Alchemy, they’ve been trying to do it forever. If there’s a way to do it, they’re going to do it. And so, the only option is to go to something that nobody can control. Nobody has the ability because human nature is always going to try to do that. And that’s why the decen­tral­ized nature of Bitcoin is so revolu­tionary. Well, one of the many reasons why it’s so revolutionary.

Preston Pysh:

And it’s amazing how long the US stayed on the gold standard after Bretton Woods. And the reason they were able to do this is because the fiscal appro­pri­a­tors at that point in time were being way more respon­sible than they are today. You have a buying habit, cogni­tively, collec­tively on a macro scale that you didn’t even… Not even remotely had back then. Now, if we went on a gold standard now it would be 1971 all over again, but it’d be three months later. Because, they have to debase that fast.

Mark Moss:

Even if they went to a gold standard, it would probably be debased right off the back. It would probably be a 20% or 40% gold backing. It wouldn’t be a 100%. They can’t do it.

Preston Pysh:

Our debase­ment just in the last 10 years alone is 15% annually, somewhere around in that number. You’d have to go back. If you’re looking at the M2 growth rate and you do a kegger on it over the last 10 years. You’re 15% debase­ment annually. So, that’s what they’re going to do if they go back and everyone sings Kumbaya. The G7 gets together, we do the SDR thing and we peg it to gold. And we do all this stuff that all these neat writers are writing about. They’re going to debase against that gold, to the tune of at least 15% annually, probably higher than that at this point because of this depres­sion that we’re in. 20% or more.

Mark Moss:

Way more. And we know that because they’re telling us how much they’re going to spend. So we have the green new deal, which is now whatever the Biden new deal. And they’re estimated to spend what, between 30 to 100 trillion?

Preston Pysh:

It’s just getting warmed up.

Brady Swenson:

They’re going to print between 30 to 100 trillion? What? That’s way more debase­ment than we’ve ever seen before. So, they’re already forecasting what that’s going to be. And that’s only the United States. What about the rest of the world that they’re going to try and do this through? So, we’re going to see debase­ment at a level that we can’t even probably compre­hend at this point.

But it’s okay because we don’t have infla­tion. As long as we don’t have, we don’t have infla­tion guys.

Preston Pysh:

We don’t have “infla­tion” according to the basket that they tell you to look into, right?

Brady Swenson:

Exactly.

Preston Pysh:

So, that’s why whenever I hear these arguments, “Oh, we’re going to go back on a gold standard.” It is the biggest eye-roll for me. And usually I just be quiet. I sit back, I listen to it. I’m just getting so tired of hearing that argument because it’s such a BS argument.

Mark Moss:

At some point though, they’re going to try to go to some SDR, which is doesn’t make a differ­ence because it’s, they’re going to be based anyway. Right? So, it doesn’t make it sound money again. So, it’s the US dollar just bigger whatever. And at some point they’re going to print their 30 to a hundred trillion dollars and they’re going to blow up the curren­cies. And at some point-

Preston Pysh:

They’re going to try.

Mark Moss:

They’re going to try. I mean, they’re going to run hundreds of trillions of dollars. And at some point it’s going to be in Venezuela, there’s paper, currency, every­where. And nobody even picks it up because it’s worth­less. So at some point they’ve lost the trust and I believe we’re already losing massive trust. We can see that in the dollar right now. But, at some point people lose trust and at some point, if they want to try to keep the game in, check a little bit, they’re going to have to do something to bring some trust back. And what do you think that would be, or do you think it’s game over? They don’t get a second chance.

Preston Pysh:

This is what I was saying with Dan Tappio on Twitter the other night, I said, “Hey, man, it comes down to trust.” So I can’t tell you when trust becomes completely eroded in the global popula­tion, flips the switch and says, “All right, clearly, clearly this is something that I have to own some percentage of.” Does that happen at a a hundred thousand? Does it happen at 150,000 coin? I don’t know, but there’s going to come a point when people saying, “Hey, I’m sitting on all these bonds that liter­ally yield nothing negative percent. Maybe I should take 5% of that. Maybe I should take 10% of it.

Holy crap. Now the price is at a 200,000. Maybe I need to take 20% and put it into this because I think I just might think that this currency thing, this Fiat currency is failing.” And that’s the trust that Mark’s talking about. It’s just going to be completely eroded in history has taught us, when that happens. It happens all at once.

Mark Moss:

So, do you think that… I guess to play that a little bit. So, do you think that as the trust is being lost? I mean, it’s happening super fast. People are starting to go shoot. I need to get out. I need to get out. You need to get out enough. People have gotten out where then once they’ve destroyed the currency, they don’t get a second round. They don’t get away to try to reback it and try to restore trust before they ruin it again. People are already gone and there is no second chance?

Preston Pysh:

I don’t know.

Mark Moss:

What’s inter­esting is I was looking at some charts, obviously the Dixie’s been crashing and it seems to have maybe found a momen­tary flora. It looked like the Dixie and gold bounced at the same time today, which is inter­esting to see them both going up. But it’s been crashing pretty fast and pretty hard. It seems the last time it really crashed this fast and hard was in 2016. And in 2016 it actually crashed about it took twice the amount of time. So it’s crashed in half the amount of time that in 2016.

And what’s inter­esting about 2016 is that there was the Shanghai accord. And so all the nations I think it was with the G7. They were not able to pay back their dollar denom­i­nated debt. And so they were going to have a sover­eign crisis. And so they all agreed that the US would de-value so they could strengthen, they could pay back in the US denom­i­nated debt. So it was a coordi­nated thing. But now we’re seeing the same crash in half the amount of time, but there is no coordi­nated thing.

As a matter of fact, the curren­cies are all coming down together and that to me looks like a loss of trust. A big time of trust, especially loss of trust in the US dollar. And in my opinion, not to get polit­ical here, but the US the election is a mess. And every­body knows there’s something going on that you can’t trust it. And just people don’t want to use the Chinese currency. Because, you can’t trust China. I think people are starting to lose trust in the US dollar pretty quickly as I see in the charts anyway. I don’t know if you have thoughts about that Preston.

Preston Pysh:

I think that’s really great.

Brady Swenson:

I’m just going to insert this real quick Preston. Larry Fink, when he talked with Mark Carney council of foreign relations last week said that Bitcoin can evolve into a global market, that it has a real impact on the US dollar and it’s making the need for the USD less relevant. So, if that’s not some signaling coming from the CEO of the largest asset manager in the world talking to the chairman of a couple of central banks, right?

Preston Pysh:

Trillions under management.

Brady Swenson:

There you go making the USD less relevant. He’s choosing his words very carefully when he says that. And he was blown away by the fact that they put up three CNBC clips from one of the Black­Rock’s top traders was on CNBC. They put up three clips on their website, the Black­Rock website. 3000 views for a clip about monetary policy, 3000 views about COVID effect on the economy. 600,000 views on the video about Bitcoin. And he knows what CEO really knows the hits on the videos they post on their website. He knew he’s watching, he’s picking his words carefully. Sorry to inter­rupt, go ahead Preston.

Preston Pysh:

I’m with you a hundred percent. I think when you’re hearing the people that are talking about this in the manner that they’re talking about it, their facial reactions. Those two couldn’t have ducked out of that conver­sa­tion faster. It was they had a puff of smoke with a cap that they threw in front of themselves as they ducked out of the back of the room, when that topic came up. I’m looking at this and I’m looking at the backdrop. I’m looking at the oppor­tu­nity costs that investors have to capture yield like Mark is saying. They’re looking for their entire lives. Somebody who’s 60 years old, 70 years old. Their entire lives they were able to capture yield somewhere, some place.

And now, they’re served with a S&P 500 market cap that’s yielding 2%, 3% at best based on how it’s priced to two its earnings. And they’re looking at a fixed income market that’s less than 1% for the ten-year treasury. They’re seeing the chaos in the streets. Globally, people know there’s something wrong. And when they see something that’s skyrock­eting in value, that makes… It doesn’t mean it’s not even fathomable how much it’s going up. And they know that it’s challenging to become a replace­ment to currency and that it has a fixed peg. They’re going to get it and they’re going to get it real fast.

Brady Swenson:

Yep.

Preston Pysh:

Brady, I think your audio is going bad.

Brady Swenson:

Can you guys hear me?

Mark Moss:

Pretty bad.

Brady Swenson:

Too bad. Keep talking am going to fix this.

Mark Moss:

Preston any thoughts on what I mentioned about the dollar, the Dixie crashing pretty hard as opposed to what we’ve seen in the past. And do you think that’s related to trust being lost maybe right now, poten­tially from the election. Or maybe that’s speeding it up between the money printing and all that together?

Preston Pysh:

I don’t know about that. I think that when you just look at the curren­cies, any major currency, the Euro, the Yen, the Dollar, the Yuan, whatever. They’re all in a compe­ti­tion that they’ve to devalue. And they’re all incen­tivized to devalue because when they do, they capture the… It’s almost a vacuum that sucks in work from overseas because the cost of labor, the cost of goods are cheaper. And so they’re able to suck the Fiat from other nations into their own local currency or in their own domestic country.

So, I think it’s more of a function of just compet­i­tive printing at this point, that’s causing the dynamic that we’re seeing playing out. It’s a winner takes all. And if you can print faster than the next person then that’s just all around good for you and your country.

Mark Moss:

It looked like last week there was it 680 billion was moved from M1 to M2-

Preston Pysh:

I’m not an expert on what the maneuver was there. I know that the M2 barely moved because of the way that they use… The way that they were moving it around. But that was really fasci­nating to see how much the M1 jumped.

Mark Moss:

I’m not exactly sure what it means either, but a big stuff is happening. As you said there’s a whole lot of chaos happening behind the scenes over here.

Preston Pysh:

I don’t even know that they know the people that are, that are punching these numbers in the keyboards know what it is that they’re doing. Oh, Brady, I see your mouth moving, but I don’t hear the question.

Mark Moss:

But to your point, I don’t think they know either. And there’re all types of unintended conse­quences. Every­thing has trade-offs. And they make it almost seems they’re making these decisions in a vacuum, but not realizing what happens? I was talking to someone earlier today and we were talking about some of the green new deal, renew­able energy type stuff and how the limita­tions on solar and wind and all of that. And the trade-offs of going renew­able. But I said, “Well, what about the $90 trillion they want to print? What about, what about that?” You got to take that into consid­er­a­tion too. It’s not just… These are big conversations.

Preston Pysh:

It’s wild. In the chat, somebody said that they’re just glad they can see Brady’s Obi wan Kenobi face.

Mark Moss:

You sound good. You sound good.

Brady Swenson:

I switched mics, so sorry about that. Having all tech issues today, but I shall overcome them. Fortu­nately I have to veterans on the show and they can just take over for me. This has been a fantastic conver­sa­tion guys. We could go all night long. It’s this has been bullish and I’m right there with you guys. I’m all hyped up. Now I’m going to go buy more Bitcoin and it’s it’s happening. It’s happening. I am convinced. I wrote a thread about it, you can check it out my pin tweet, at Citizen Bitcoin.

This is what I think is happening is what I’m watching for this cycle. I think we’re going to break all the models like Michael Saylor said, “People come in and all your models are destroyed. Completely devas­tated, bitcoin goes to the moon.” That quote has been ringing in my ears since it was set a couple of months ago, I see this happening. I see more large investors holding. I see, the narra­tives, the atten­tion, the marketing, as you pointed out on the last episode, we were together with Preston.

The marketing value that the price ride number go up we’ll bring in is going to be 10 X what it Was a hundred X, what it was in 2017. And the messages out there… This is going to be an absolutely insane year stack while you can, we’re down here, hanging out just below all time high. I think once that breaks, it’s going to be, it’s going to… The madness will be beyond.

Mark Moss:

I’m a buyer. I’m a buyer right here. I came in 2015, 2016. I stacked pretty hard when it was at a good price. After that it crashed from a thousand and I did pretty good. And I haven’t really added much over the last couple of years. I started buying again this year at 10. And I bought some yesterday and then I saw it crash this morning. And I’m, “No”. Now I don’t care. I’m a buyer at these prices for the first time in a long time. And I’m bullish. How, how can you not be if you’re paying attention.

Preston Pysh:

I’m a buyer. Every month I got free cash flows that my company is kicking off and every month I just buy Bitcoin with it.

Brady Swenson:

Swanish that is very Swanish. All right, gentlemen really appre­ciate your time. This has been a ton of fun, Preston. This is your fourth or fifth time on the show. Really appre­ciate you making time for us on a regular basis. Mark, we’ll have you back on. I’m sure you were on earlier as well. This is has been great. Gents, I’m going to show you guys for a minute the Investors podcast. Bring it up in your podcast app, if you don’t yet.

All right. Preston is doing… Well, he’s got great shows talking to macro guys and gals and investors talking finance. Bitcoin comes up on their shows, of course, but now he has a focused Bitcoin show the strop. And on Wednes­days, you got to check that out. The first episode with BreedLove was, you know, two hours of absolutely dense value. It’s an episode that I will be sharing with family and friends are really curious and just want to under­stand what’s going on here from first principles.

I did an episode with BreedLove, my money time, under­standing money, time, money and time, sorry, from first princi­ples, that was a year and a half ago. So he’s honed his game and just really brought it on a prece­dence podcast. And then VJ Boy Potty on the second episode was great. So you got to check those out. Mark Moss is at youtube.com/ Mark Moss. Just really blowing up on YouTube because he’s pumping out great content. So go like, subscribe, watch his videos. Do the same here we do this every Tuesday. Sometimes we have an emergency show.

We also do Swan lounge on Fridays where we can have more of a hangout vibe that’s a lot of fun. We’re throwing out other stuff on this channel all the time. So subscribe. I think it’s of the best Bitcoin channels on YouTube. And I’m glad that we got estab­lished here. Because, I really hope to help these guys put a lot better Bitcoin content out on the YouTube jugger­nauts. So, thank you guys for your time. If you guys want to shill anything else or just give us the last couple of words of inspi­ra­tion, love to hear it.

Preston Pysh:

Thanks for having, having me and Mark the episode that’s coming out for this Wednesday for the Bitcoin show is with Jeff Booth and it’s going to be coming out actually in a couple hours. So we appre­ciate you invite me back on Brady. This is always fun. Mark, we got to do something… We got to do some other conver­sa­tions. I really enjoyed this with you and thanks for having me.

Mark Moss:

And same Brady. Thanks for having me back on as well. Preston, I’ve had Jeff on. He’s an amazing guy to talk to. So I can’t wait to listen to you. guys’ conver­sa­tion. It’s always cool to listen to the same people talk… The same person, talk about it from different people. Because there’s so many different conver­sa­tions that come up. But yeah, Brady, thanks for having me back on. I love Swan. I love what Swan’s doing. I’ve been sharing a lot of their stuff online.

Mark Moss:

And I don’t have any type of affil­i­a­tion other than I just love the ethos of what you’re trying to do and push Bitcoin adoption. So I’m definitely liking that. And I appre­ciate every­body else… Just what I would say to every­body. Just going out is that I think everyone needs to just continue to share this and just really push the mission.

This is to change the world. I mean, this is our life raft and it’s a really big deal. It’s not just about money. It’s not just about a wall street game and what micro strategy is doing on wall street. I mean, this is what’s going to change the world. It’s really a revolu­tion. And so I just encourage people to really dig in, to find out what it is. Share it with other people and just know that the future is not set. It’s what we want it to be. And so it’s up to each one of us. So I’ll leave you with that.

Brady Swenson:

Dropping the mic. Thanks so much, Mark. Brekkie, we’ve got an insanely bullish episode here. I think it’s only appro­priate since we’ve been talking about Michael Saylor, make a news again, that we go out. Play us out with the Michael Saylor hype video. Let’s do it.

Michael Saylor:

First, I have a mega, mega, mega problem. And the maga problem is I have a lot of cash and I’m watching it melt away. Under a good year for the past decades the monetary supply expands by seven, 8%. That’s my battery draining by 8% a year. That’s a good year and this is not a good year for us. This is a year where you can make the argument that the battery is going to drain $25. What is the point of all this? What am I doing wrong? And of course the answer is you can’t hold cash. And so we bought $425 million.

Bitcoin is the best security. And the most liquid security invented in the history of the world. This has already won. It’s won. It’s been tested hundreds of thousands of not millions of counter parties can trade and trust each other with real time certainty that a collat­eral has not been double punch, rehypoth­e­cated and there’s no fraud. It’s digital gold. It’s at least a hundred times better than gold. I think it’s probably thousands of times better than gold. Bitcoin is the first perfected digital monetary network in the history of the world. It’s never been done before. It’s dominating every­thing that competes with it.

There’s no reason to believe it won’t be 10 times bigger than a hundred times, bigger than a thousand times bigger. The dominant player is going to take every­thing. Who are these? Who are these? Who are these people that selling this to me? And I feel sorry for them. What are you going to buy? That’s better than what you’re selling to me. I just pity them.

I don’t want to hear that you’ve got a new idea and you’re upset over trans­ac­tion fees. And you would like to imple­ment smart contracts change thing. I don’t want to hear that. I want to hear you’re going to defend the network to the depth against someone that’s going to break it or compro­mise it in any way shape or form. What I want is to see a bunch of Bitcoins that will lay down in front of the tank and Tenement Square right to the better depth inten­tion engineer that wants to keep it. You have to defend the network to the depth. It’s a beautiful thing. Probably the most beautiful achieve­ment in the history of the world. We’ve invented something extra­or­di­nary. Don’t F with the network.

Past Episodes

Episode 8 –Andy Edstrom and Ansel Linder

Episode 9 –Rockstar Devel­oper and Jeremy Rubin

Episode 10 – Bitcoin TINA and CK Snarks

Episode 11– Gigi and Knut Svanholm

Episode 12 –Adam Back and Preston Pysh

Episode 13 –Alex Gladstein and Matt Odell

Episode 14 –Robert Breedlove and Tuur Demeester

Episode 15 –Isaiah Jackson and Max Keiser

Episode 16 –Gigi and Udi Wertheimer

Episode 17 –Aleks Svetski and Jimmy Song

Episode 18 –Stephan Livera and Marty Bent

Episode 19 –Mark Moss and Ben Prentice

Episode 20 –Samson Mow and Parker Lewis

Episode 21–Lyn Alden and Jeff Booth

Episode 22– Robert Breedlove and Cory Klippsten

Episode 23 — Saifedean Ammous and George Gammon

Episode 24 –Jameson Lopp and Eric Martindale

Episode 25 –Preston Pysh and Andy Edstrom

Episode 26 –Lyn Alden and Nic Carter

Episode 27 — Erik Townsend and Yan Pritzker

Episode 28 — Max Keiser and Tone Vays

Episode 29 –Preston Pysh and Andy Edstrom

Episode 30–Raoul Pal and Vijay Boyapati

Episode 31–Dan Tapiero and Dan Matuszewski

Episode 32–Robert Breedlove and Parker Lewis

Episode 33– Danielle DiMartino Booth and Michael Saylor

Episode 34– Jeff Deist and Stephan Livera

Episode 35–Will Reeves and Yan Pritzker

Episode 36–Alex Gladstein and Marty Bent

Episode 37–Brandon Quittem and Robert Breedlove

Episode 38–Jake Chervinsky and Rafael Yakobi

Episode 39–Alex Adelman and Desiree Dickerson

Episode 40–Andy Edstrom and Lyn Alden

Episode 41– Der Gigi and Hass McCook

Links

Swan Bitcoin

Swan Bitcoin — the best place to buy and invest in Bitcoin

Swan Bitcoin on Twitter

Swan Signal on YouTube

Swan Signal on Facebook

Swan Signal on Twitch

Swan Signal Podcast

Swan Signal Telegram Chat Room

Preston Pysh

The Investor’s Podcast

Preston Pysh on Twitter

Preston Pysh on Linkedin

Mark Moss

Mark on Twitter

Mark on Youtube

Mark’s Website

Market Disrup­tors Podcast

Mark on LinkedIn

Mark on Instagram

Mark’s Website

This blog offers thoughts and opinions on Bitcoin from the Swan Bitcoin team and friends. Swan Bitcoin is the easiest way to buy Bitcoin using your bank account automatically every week or month, starting with as little as $10. Sign up or learn more here.

Brady Swenson

Brady Swenson

Brady is the Head of Education at Swan Bitcoin, the best place to buy Bitcoin with easy recurring purchases straight from your bank account. Brady also hosts Citizen Bitcoin, a podcast focused on documenting his journey learning Bitcoin, featuring some of the biggest names in the Bitcoin world.

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26565 Agoura Rd Ste 200
Calabasas, CA USA
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© 2021 Swan Bitcoin

Electric Solidus LLC
26565 Agoura Rd Ste 200
Calabasas, CA USA
hello@swanbitcoin.com
+1.218.379.7926
Swan Bitcoin does not provide any investment, financial, tax, legal or other professional advice. We recommend that you consult with financial and tax advisors to understand the risks and consequences of buying, selling and holding Bitcoin.